Posts by Jonathan Drake

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

It will never be gone. There will always be stupid people, dumb parents and idiotic ideas - something else would replace it. What we can do is reduce it's impact by making certain things mandatory for all children e.g. education - get rid of "faith schools" (which is an oxymoron) and home schooling.

Well this would be a nice compromise to forceful outlawing of religion, I must say. This topic, religion, is one I am extremely biased on. I feel robbed and having only just got out of the JWs that feeling of robbery is probably just still fresh, maybe as time goes on ill be less hostile toward it and be able to think of more peaceful solutions like you and looter put forward.

Still, it'd be nice to see them convicted for all the harms they've done to all the people they've affected around the world. And not just them, but other religions too. I think that's where my feelings on it come from, the fact that I realize you and looter are right, I'll never see justice for these harms but I want to - I don't want revenge, not saying that. violence isn't the answer, but I'd like to see something... Know what I mean?

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@looter

i suppose that does make sense. But so many lives will be ruined by them until that point. I guess that idea is something I really hate ya know? Like, how many children will never reach their full potential because of the Watchtower before it's gone? How many children will grow up in poverty because of the churches dogma of NFP?

i hate thinking about it.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@ simon

yea it happened a while back, and I've not read they reopened anywhere:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2011/12/29/illinois-catholic-charities-close-rather-than-allow-same-sex-couples-adopt-children/Km9RBLkpKzABNLJbUGhvJM/story.html

The way I see them as connected is because the argument is about "traditional" marriage. The opponents of gay rights whom I've heard speak all used that same word. And where are they getting this definition of tradition marriage? Not all of them say it's the bible, some do, but it surely must be. On the Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore last week there was a panel discussing the issue and all four agreed that it boils down to religion trying to stand in the way. Now I should say, this does not mean all religious people feel that way, but the major organizations themselves certainly aren't supporting it.

Here is the nightly show panel discussion:

http://sallykohn.com/2015/02/nightly-show-larry-wilmore-clips-gay-marriage-discussion/

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Oh dear, you're not one of these "let's force Armageddon to happen" types are you?
Outlawing religion, while certainly appealing, plays into religions hands and persecution complex.

Lol no, I thought of that on the fly. ive thought about how that complex would be set off. There would definitely be a huge fight. But I honestly think it would be worth it. I mean, really, religions are the reason for the worst acts in human history. They are vile organizations in my opinion. This is why I think (this is all my opinion at this point btw, obviously) it should be outlawed. Let the crazy ones who would rise up rise up, throw them in jail and try not to hurt them but if we could get rid of religion our world wide society would benefit GREATLY, I think. i mean, along with race (which makes no sense) isn't religion one of the biggest dividers in our society?

Separation of Church (any religion) and State (any country) is THE most important thing.
Don't do business with theocracy controlled countries. Help the poor souls forced to live in those places.

Also I agree with this.

I just have difficulty seeing how, as a society we will keep them separate when they've already been included to an extent- which I feel the gay rights issue demonstrates. Religion is the only reason it's an issue, and what's going to happen when it's law? In Illinoise, when gay marriage passed, the Catholic Church shut down all of the orphanages in the state that they had. (I do not know if they are still closed). This sort of behavior can only escalate in my opinion.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

I think the piece you are missing is that the bible and quran are intended to be weapons to give authority and control people. They will always be open to interpretation because they are vague and badly written.

This is true. There is a huge cultural chasm filled with old English and poor verbiage. Elsewhere on these forums I've voiced my opinion that religion should be outlawed. I honestly believe this. Outlaw all religion, and no man will be able to rise up and inspire the crazy people to follow him. We don't have to outlaw the books IMO, just the organizations.

Option 2, outlaw the books too. If God is really there, he won't let this happen amd we can jump start this "end times" deal. But if nothing happens? We can move on in unity and laugh at our naïveté.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

but you will be doing civilisation a big favour.

Yes! I agree! Example, take the slap out. It's unnecessary. In the ancient culture it was acceptable, but today it is not and should not be there. The book itself indicates the slap is a poor choice anyway, since job is pictured as regretting his oath to lash his wife and rewarded with a way out of it. So let's take it out, let's get a modern translation that doesn't allow for people to reach all these radical conclusions.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

We need to empower those who would reform it however we can. The first step is encouraging open criticism of the religion as otherwise nothing will change.

I agree with this as well. I feel the best way to do it is to use their own book against them. Which is what I indicated when saying the Quran is a witness against Muslims. So perhaps what we've been doing all along here is arguing same thing but with different ideas of how to do it? I dunno. I hope so.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

I'm just telling you the impression I get from what you posted.

This I understand. I really do, and my point is this:

you can respond to me and state what your impression is and I can respond and explain whether or not that was my intention. The Quran can only do this if someone positions it's words for it, and the same is true of the Bible. My goal, my posts, were aimed at this cause- to let the books speak in response and show what they say (I.e., someone said the Quran denies Christ is the messiah, but it says otherwise). If we are going to say that they say this or that and that what they say is vile, we should be willing to actually hear them out and see if what we've heard about them or read about them is actually true. That was all I was doing. If the conclusion you have reached personally remains unaffected that is completely your call, I only sought to ensure any false ideas were rectified- not to change your mind about it. As I stated earlier if I came across that way I do apologize, but I can assure you it's not my intention in the slightest. I'm not even a Muslim lol.

also I added an edition to my previous post, in case you missed it. I want to ensure you know I did read your whole post and that if your indication was meant to be this you feel islam should reform some how I agree with this. It really should.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

You seem to want to be the authority on what both Christians and Muslims should and shouldn't believe and which writings are the true word of god or not.

But again, this is something I have never claimed, regardless of what may or may not seem to be the case. I never once said this at all, yet you're interpreting what I said to mean it somehow.

this is a further example of what I said above. And I mean this as friendly as possible, but you've all done far more interpreting in this thread than I have because it is continuing to happen with my words which, 'seem' to indicate to you what you want them to so you can lambast me. But I never said it. I never said or even thought abou claiming Christians of any enoki action are fake, or that I am the authority on how they should think and feel. Regarding the latter, I've emphasized the opposite at least three times.

Just like with the words on the pages, the words I actually speak and type aren't the words being read or heard- they are being read into and turned I to something else entirely. Personally, I feel this might just be human nature, but it serves to illustrate my point in the last post I made once again.

That is because Christianity went through it's reformation and took a pen to the bible, crossing out large swathes of it as no longer applicable / just historical narrative.

also if this is meant as an indication that you feel islam should have its own reformation, I completely agree and said so on another page.

15

Is the UN really the disgusting thing?

by StarTrekAngel in

been dwelling on this for a while.

was there any particular history on this or anywhere where the wt picked up someone else's doctrine?.

in most cases, the bible uses the word "disgusting thing" to refer to idols, idolatry and false religion.

Jonathan Drake

I don't see how the UN could be the beast. I feel this way because the beast represents some political entity with real power. The UN just doesn't really do anything.

Because of a recent thread I'm going to refrain from posting my thoughts on this subject further unless asked. I do have theories on the beast identies.